Father Roy Bourgeois
Editor’s Note: The following book review/ interview with Roy Bourgeois appeared in three parts in the Irish Edition (Dec., Jan., Feb 2010)—prior to the latest news that Roy Bourgeois is now being threatened with removal from the Maryknoll Order by his order if he refuses to recant his views on women’s ordination. Bourgeois has 15 days to respond.
The amazing journey of Roy Bourgeois, former decorated Vietnam veteran and recipient of the Purple Heart for his valor, (a medal he eventually returned) is a mesmerizing tale. Now a Maryknoll priest, Bourgeois was excommunicated by the Roman Catholic Church in 2008 for refusing to recant his views on women’s ordination.
For the past 20 years, he has been on a crusade to shut down the School of the Americas (SOA) in Fort Benning, Georgia—the school which is funded by U.S. tax dollars and the blessing of every administration; the school that trains Latin American military to kill their own people– all in the guise of promoting democracy; when, in fact, democracy is crushed at every turn.
I stumbled upon Disturbing the Peace published in 2004 by James Hodge and Linda Cooper chronicling Bourgeois’ incredible life story and was impressed, inspired and totally blown away! This is a book that you may want to read twice and then go back to again—just to absorb its full impact. Few U.S. citizens know anything about U.S. Foreign Policy—a policy driven by special interests and enforced by the military and the CIA which has operated covertly and unchecked in Latin America where democratically elected leaders are ousted or disappeared and human rights activists are tortured and killed.
Few U.S. citizens know of the horrific atrocities committed daily in Latin America by Latin American military trained at the School of the Americas (SOA).
Finally, due to the tireless efforts of Roy Bourgeois and a band of activists that numbered just ten in the first year of the SOA Watch and has grown to thousands– with high profile actor Martin Sheen, an activist on Latin American issues, and legendary Jesuit priest and anti-war activist Father Daniel Berrigan onboard; this dirty little secret that dictates U.S. Foreign Policy is being exposed –and shocking, it is!
The narrative begins in 1983 at the army base in Fort Benning Georgia as Roy Bourgeois and Larry Rosebaugh, an Oblate priest, and Linda Ventimiglia, an Army reserve officer, disguise themselves as high ranking officers to infiltrate the army base.
Their action succeeds as the tape recorded voice of the assassinated Salvadoran Archbishop Oscar Romero echoes from the treetops urging the startled Salvadoran soldiers at Fort Benning not to kill. The three are charged with impersonating officers and criminal trespassing and dragged off to jail. Their bold stunt would shed a light on what would soon become the new home for the Latin American training facility formerly housed in the Panama Canal and dubbed the ‘ School of the Assassins’ by Latin Americans for training “dictators, torturers and death squad leaders” in their own countries. This was the school that the Pentagon was planning to move to Fort Benning, Georgia– and did.
Recently, Father Bourgeois talked about his amazing transformation from hawkish southern Vietnam vet to deeply committed anti-war protester and non-violent peace activist and about his vocal and controversial support of a woman’s right to be ordained a priest in the Roman Catholic Church—a cause that cost him excommunication when he refused to recant his beliefs.
SC Should I call you Roy or Father Bourgeois?
RB Call me Roy. How is it in Philadelphia?
SC Fine. First, I want to thank you for your service to our country.
RB Well, thank you very much
SC I love the book. It was passed through my family. I feel like I know your family just from looking at those photos in the book. They have such nice faces!
RB Well, we have been blessed with a close family and great parents. We lost my Mom two years ago at age 95. My Dad is ninety-seven so I go home a little more often now
SC It seems as if you had an idyllic life, with the Cajun cooking and the Mississippi River at your back door
RB (laughing) I have to tell you—last night I had some gumbo. My Mom was a great cook and she passed that on to my sisters. Whenever I go home now, my sister Ann, the youngest in the family, makes these containers for me of her gumbo and her creole. I take it home and treat myself and make it last
SC Growing up you had a pretty typical childhood– hometown high school football star intending to marry your high school sweetheart. Then after enlisting as an officer in the Navy and traveling all over the world and serving in Vietnam— you suddenly informed your parents that you were entering the priesthood. How did they take this?
RB They were quite shocked when I entered the seminary. It was a struggle for them when I started because when one becomes a priest in the family everybody is so proud. You know what it is like in a traditional Catholic family–all the folderol. But then when I started protesting and going to prison. That was when I began really questioning whether my Mom could handle my being in prison. When I was in prison in Minnesota and in Florida, I could say it was too far away for them to visit but when I was assigned for nine months to prison in Oakdale, Louisiana, they were just three hours away so I couldn’t say to them that it was too far. So, when they came to see me in prison, that was sort of a breakthrough. My Mom did exceptionally well and she started asking, ‘why there weren’t more priests in prison protesting.’ ( laughing) She wanted to know where all these other priests were. It is always a struggle but we follow our conscience. What we do is often not understood by our families and friends. They do not understand our experience.
SC How did they act when you came back from Vietnam? Was it easier for them to relate to that experience?
RB Of course, when I came back from Vietnam, I was the local war hero but when I started protesting the war in Vietnam they didn’t understand because in my little town there wasn’t a lot of protesting against the war. It was a traditional, conservative small town in Louisiana
SC How do you feel about the Catholic Church today?
RB We have never really grown up as adults in the Catholic Church. We remain-many of us—children. St. Paul said in 1 Corinthians, ‘When I was a child, I acted as a child and thought as a child. But now I am an adult and must put the ways of my childhood behind me.’ But for many Catholics, it is hard to become adults because of the model of Church that we live in—the Catholic Church. It is very top down with the Pope. We are taught to be submissive; not to question. I see this as the essence of the problem in the Catholic Church today. The leaders are telling the faithful, the people in the pews, the Catholics, to be obedient children and not to question the Church’s teachings on anything—such as women’s ordination and all of these other issues. Most Catholics who are educated are saying, ‘Sorry, we will not remain children. I am an adult and I want to be treated as an adult.’ On the issue of women’s ordination, they are saying, ‘There is no discussion; go to your room.’
SC What do you think will happen to the Catholic Church?
RB Well, that is the big question. That is what I am asking. Since this book was published, I really broke my silence on women’s ordination. Going public has really got me in big trouble with the Vatican. I am still a member of Maryknoll; I am still on the payroll. I could not be silent on this issue just as I could not be silent on the School of the Americas. Next week will be the 20th anniversary of our protest at Fort Benning and the School of the Americas. For these 20 years and especially for the last 10 years, I started traveling and giving thousands of talks in churches and high schools and colleges. And in these talks, I often met devout Catholic women who shared with me their deep faith and their call to the priesthood. And, to be honest, as priests, we did not talk about this in the seminary. Vietnam was the big issue. I cannot remember one discussion on why women cannot be ordained in our church. It was tradition; it was the Church’s teaching. I was meeting so many women who were using the same language that we used as men–that experienced the same calling from God to the priesthood. So, I started asking the basic question-‘Who are we as men to reject God’s call of women?’ We all profess that that calling to the priesthood does not come from the Pope or some Bishop -–it comes from God and only God. For me, this is the essence of the issue. Who are we, as priests, to say our call is authentic but your call, as women, is not authentic. The Church’s teaching that excludes women from the priesthood cannot stand up to scrutiny. That is why I am finding that Bishops and my fellow priests including the Superior Maryknoll who I am trying to get some debate with or discussion on the issue; do not want to discuss it because there is no scriptural basis for it. At this point for me there is no turning back. I see this injustice against women in our Church. There is such clarity in this issue for me. So, I am getting more and more invitations to speak about women’s ordination to groups all over the country. Soon, and this is going to get me into some trouble, is the first documentary on the women’s ordination issue called Pink Smoke Over the Vatican. It was shown last week at the Call to Action Conference in Milwaukee that I attended. It is very professionally done and will be released in a month. It is getting great reviews. There is a priest from Pittsburgh who gives the official teaching of the Church and tries to explain why women can’t be ordained. I was the only priest they could find to go on camera to support the ordination of women. Many of the Catholic priests are supportive of women’s ordination but are fearful to go public because they are going to get in trouble with their Bishops
SC Even though the Maryknolls have stood by you, they withdrew funding this year for your School of the Americas (SOA) Watch.
RB The Superior General, Ed Dougherty, a longtime friend of mine, is new at the job. He worked in Africa and for the last 10 years was assigned to the Maryknoll House in Rome. He was raised and went to school in Philadelphia. In Rome, something happened. He became very clerical, a company man. He told me by way of explanation that I had become the public face of the movement to have women ordained and it might be perceived that Maryknoll endorsed this stand also. So the funding for the School of the Americas Watch was cut and many people were upset and made donations that more than tripled our grants. Thousands of letters of protest came in from all over the country. Even the Maryknoll sisters were upset. Twenty-one national organizations wrote to Maryknoll asking them to reinstate this grant to the SOA Watch. I think Ed is very insecure. He is worried about bishops; he is worried about the Pope, and, maybe, like a lot of priests, they want to move up that ladder. You know, they might be made Bishop one day if they are very obedient children.
SC You have a history of speaking truth to power. Regarding the School of the Americas, do you think you will be successful in shutting the school down?
RB Without a doubt. But at the same time, this struggle for justice is not just about 15 or 20 years. Our struggle is connected to the struggle for justice in Latin America. They have suffered so much and have been struggling for generations
SC I could not believe what happens there. I almost got physically ill reading about the atrocities committed against these people
RB When I look at struggles of the people in Latin America to liberate themselves for centuries from their oppressors and the dominating effects of U.S. Foreign Policy—20 years is nothing
SC I also found it shocking that U.S. Presidents on down have supported the School with funding and people here in the U.S. don’t know this
RB This is the real issue; there are a lot of people in the United States who are simply not aware of our country’s Foreign Policy. I feel that our greatest enemy in the United States is ignorance. We don’t know what it means for those on the receiving end—whether it is in El Salvador, Honduras, Latin America or the Middle East
SC What was it like growing up Catholic in Lutcher, Louisiana?
RB Growing up Catholic in Louisiana wasn’t just about religion. It was patriotism; it was the priests, the bishops, and the football coach. They all had so much influence over us .So, when your country calls you to go to war—a good Catholic will sign up. A good Catholic will be patriotic; it is like a call to martyrdom
SC Your first act of civil disobedience was in 1971 in Washington, D.C. when you protested the continued bombing in Vietnam. You risked being expelled from Maryknoll. Why did you take that risk? And then you confronted your Superior Father Thomas O’Keefe, asking him why he hadn’t joined the protest
RB Well, my conversion didn’t come overnight or within two years. It was a long hard struggle to free myself from my past. We are so influenced by what we are taught as children that we bring that into adulthood. Vietnam was, one of those turning points. My experience there forced me to reevaluate and reflect with a critical consciousness. Then when I entered the seminary, there were some good years of reflection. The quiet time and the solitude gave me a chance to clarify my position on this war. I reached a point where I felt that it was time to act. You see, faith without action is dead. It is lifeless; it is false
SC I found it very provocative that when you had just started Maryknoll College in Glen Ellyn, Illinois, you were upset that Father Daniel Berrigan was coming to speak and you wanted to stop it. You must both laugh about this now
RB (laughing) I told Dan at lunch several years later, ‘You know Dan, I have to confess something. I went to the Rector and said ‘We should not allow this traitor to speak here’. Even the Rector said, ‘You know you don’t have to attend.’ Then I started putting flyers around urging people to boycott this talk (again laughing heartily)
SC And look where you are now! You are right there with him; you both have served prison sentences and spoken out against injustices forcefully and without regard for personal consequences. And now Dan Berrigan has joined your protest every year
RB Yes he has. In fact, I am looking at a photo of him on the wall right now
SC Did Archbishop Oscar Romero influence you?
RB Without a doubt. I never had the honor of meeting him but he touched me deeply. There are a lot of similarities. He started out as a very conservative right-winger. When he was made Bishop, the wealthy of El Salvador, the big landowners, rejoiced. They said ‘We have a friend here in Bishop Romero. He will not cause us problems.’ He was considered a bookworm. He was aloof but what he had was this loving heart. He had great compassion and he would meet with others to hear their stories. He scolded the poor peasants, ‘the campesinos’ for being too political. Still, the ‘campesinos’ walked for miles to attend the mass when he was made Bishop. There were thousands there. And at that mass, he scolded them for getting involved in politics. Some of the Jesuits were so embarrassed by his sermon that they walked off the altar
SC What made Romero change?
RB What happened was his good friend, a Jesuit priest, was assassinated. This really shook him. That is when he went out to the countryside and mingled with the poor. He began to hear their stories and connected to their suffering. He was filled with compassion for them and this enabled him to change. So, there was no turning back. He started speaking out on the radio and at his masses in the Cathedral. He started speaking out against the military and the big landowners. He finally made an appeal to the military to stop the killing and to lay down their weapons and to disobey their superiors who were telling them to kill. And, it was the next day that he was assassinated. When he was gunned down in Church, he touched the lives of so many people and so many in the United States. It was that action that really inspired us to dress as military to enter Fort Benning in 1983. Originally, there were supposed to be five of us but the other two who were Vietnam vets backed out because their lawyers told them that they could get sentenced to five years in jail. For us it made no difference. We were so inspired by Bishop Romero who gave his life. We thought ‘What is 5 years, what is 10 years?’ We also thought that we could get shot—that is what scared us. I felt so close to Bishop Romero. I felt his presence so deeply. It made it possible for us to carry out this bold action at Fort Benning
SC How many years have you served in prison for following your conscience?
RB It’s a little over 4 years
SC You have been on many hunger strikes; what was the longest one that you were on?
RB I guess it was 40 days on the steps of the Capitol in Washington, D.C. over the School of the Americas. It got the attention of Congressman Joe Kennedy and Congressman Joseph Moakley. But the most difficult was in 1990 when ten of us set up our first SOA Watch. The first action was a fast; it was very serious because it was just water—no juices, no food
SC In Bolivia you risked your life on a daily basis
RB Bolivia was good preparation. I look back and ask myself why I don’t feel fear. In Vietnam, I was very fearful because death was so close. Bolivia was high risk. There were nights when I could not stay in my little one room because it was so dangerous –it could be the night when the knock came on the door. The stakes were very high; so when it came to starting the SOA Watch and taking on the Vatican over the women’s ordination issue, I had no fear because I look back at the risks we were taking in Bolivia. I am very grateful for my experience in Bolivia because it was good preparation and a sort of training for taking on these bullies in Rome. In Bolivia they were using their power and beating up on people and killing people. There are bullies in the government and bullies in these countries and bullies in Rome at the Vatican. They abuse power
SC Could you explain the connection between the CIA and the military in Bolivia and these other countries?
RB We were able to confirm that our labor attaché there at the U.S. Embassy was the CIA operative. In most of the embassies, you can’t tell unless their names are exposed to the public and this is what happened. It was during this time at our embassy in Greece that the CIA operative was outted and fled. So, the labor attaché in LePaz, Bolivia had to also leave the country because it became too dangerous. The embassy in Bolivia was very supportive of General Hugo Banzer Suarez, the dictator who was arresting students, tin miners, and labor leaders. It was all in the name of protecting U.S. economic interests. I remember meeting with the U.S. Ambassador there and asking him, ‘How can we justify what we are doing here?’ We were pumping millions of dollars into that military dictatorship that was killing its own people. He said, ‘This government is allied with the United States. They are protecting our self-interests.’ Of course, all he was talking about was economic interests.
SC People are now getting angry that 59 % of our budget is spent on the military when we have so many problems domestically. Maybe this will lead them to question our Foreign Policy
RB When I came home to my little town, I would say mass and started talking about General Hugo Banzer in Bolivia –since Bolivia was so much a part of my life— and I started bringing foreign policy into my homily. I could see the look in their eyes; they were saying where is this guy coming from. It was all so alien to them. They were used to hearing some nice little lollipop story from the priest. They didn’t get issues on justice, suffering or foreign policy. They didn’t hear anything of the billions going into the Pentagon and the theft from the poor. So, when they heard this for the first time-they were shocked. I remember the loneliness I felt. When I came home from Bolivia people would ask questions like ‘How is the weather? How is the food?’ And when I came back from Vietnam I remember one person in the community asking me ‘How was Korea’! Back home we were so cut off from a bigger world
SC When you returned home after having been exiled from Bolivia for your human rights work and just barely getting out of the country alive, you decided to go to El Salvador after three Maryknoll nuns were raped and murdered and Archbishop Romero was gunned down. How did your family react to this and why did you go there?
RB They all tried to convince me not to go—along with my sister who said, ‘Roy, how can you do this to Mom and Dad? You have made us suffer enough.’ All I could say was ‘You chose to marry your high school sweetheart and work here in the town and have your children –and I have never been critical. When I told them I was entering the seminary after Vietnam, they were very disappointed. They wanted more babies. Most of my classmates married their high school sweethearts, stayed in town and got jobs at the plants there and went to the Friday night football games. I realized that if I had stayed in my little town and married my high school sweetheart–which I really thought of doing– I would never have gone to Vietnam, I would never have gone to Bolivia, I would not have been influenced by Bishop Romero. Before I signed up for Vietnam, in both high school and college I always had this awareness that there was a big world out there that I would love to explore. I noticed how many of my classmates were very content to stay in the little town. In a way, the Navy became my ticket out of Louisiana. From officer training school in Newport, Rhode Island and then aboard the ship, I was traveling to Trinidad, Iceland and all over the Mediterranean. At the ports where we docked and at an orphanage in Athens, Greece, I got my first exposure to real poverty. I saw children with bloated stomachs. I remember being shaken by that and by how some people lived without running water
SC Your life in the Navy was pretty comfortable. What made you volunteer to go to Vietnam?
RB A big part of that was the patriotism. I believed our leaders who said the cause was noble. I believed it when they said we were going to be the liberators. I was the only officer from our base in Greece to sign up for Vietnam. I remember the Chaplain called me aside and said, ‘Roy, do you realize what you are doing? It is very dangerous over there.’ I said to him, ‘It’s a noble cause.’ What I didn’t realize until later was the words of the prophet Isaiah “They will take evil and call it good. They will take a lie and call it truth”
SC Were the Maryknolls notified of your excommunication?
RB My Maryknoll Superior told me that because the 30 days ended long ago for me to renounce my position on women’s ordination; in the eyes of the Vatican, I am excommunicated. However, the Vatican never wrote back to me acknowledging my letter nor did they say my excommunication is being instated. My Superior told me that the Vatican will not respond. They will have no discussion— they only want two words from me: I recant. I actually thought about going to Rome but was advised by several canon lawyers and a Bishop friend not to and to just continue my ministry.
SC As an excommunicated priest do you still say mass or receive the sacraments?
RB I don’t say mass in church or perform the sacraments anymore out of respect for their decision. But I do say mass privately at home and receive communion and give communion to my 97 year-old father. I am not assigned to a parish like a lot of priests
SC Did your family see the letter you wrote to the Vatican?
RB Yes. After I wrote the letter I drove home for 7 hours. I wanted my family to understand my predicament. I got home on Friday and had a sleepless night; but I had to do what I had to do. I wanted to have a little family gathering the next day to explain my position. I met with my brother and my two sisters before meeting with my Dad. They said, ‘Roy, don’t do this. You are going to break Daddy’s heart.’ You know, my parents were big churchgoers and watched the rosary on TV on the Baton Rouge channel. I gave them all copies of the letter that I wrote to the Vatican and left them alone for about 10 minutes. And my sister turned to my Dad and said, ‘Daddy, what do you think about this?’ My Dad started crying a little bit and said, ‘Roy is doing the right thing.’ It was just amazing. I had never heard my Dad talking like that. He said, ‘God brought Roy back from the war in Vietnam, God took care of Roy in Bolivia, God took care of Roy in prison, and God is going to take care of Roy now.’ Then he stood up and we embraced. And then, my brothers and two sisters got up and we all hugged each other. I couldn’t believe it; to get the blessing of my family on this issue was a gift! Everyone had been concerned about my Dad; he is elderly and his heart could have been broken. I could understand that but we still have to do what our conscience calls us to do. But after my Dad said he approved of my not recanting—my brother and my sisters changed. Then my brother said, ‘Give me the address of the Pope. I want to write to him and let him know what I think about this.’ Then my sister who is even more traditional said that in the last year, 30 Catholic churches in New Orleans had closed due to a shortage of Catholic priests and asked ‘Why don’t they have women priests at these churches?’ That was a breakthrough!
SC How about the excommunication of women priests by the Vatican?
RB It saddens me that our Church would excommunicate women called to the priesthood by God and priests who ordain them are also excommunicated. This movement is kind of new to me but as I said to Ed Dougherty (Superior General of the Maryknolls), ‘Ed, you have been in Rome for 10 years. You have to know that within the United States, this movement is not going away. I am not some lone voice crying in the wilderness. You should know that the New York Times, Time Magazine and CBS polls report that the majority of Catholics support the ordination of women. They support a married priesthood. And many of these people are supporters of Maryknolls. The Church is in big trouble. I know many women and friends who have left the Church because they couldn’t take it anymore. It hurts to think about this
SC What do you think about the Church’s teaching on the infallibility of the Pope?
RB To say a human being is infallible is a scandal. In the future Church, we will get rid of two words: infallibility and excommunication
SC How do you respond to your critics and conservative Catholics who object to your criticism of some of the Church teachings?
RB Regarding my views on U.S. Foreign Policy, some of my critics say, ‘Why don’t you just leave the country and move to Russia.’ My response is that I am a U.S. citizen and I love our country. I am also asked a similar question regarding the Church. Part of the problem with our leaders in Rome is that they claim ownership of God and of the Church. I believe that we, the people, are the Church. The Pope is not the owner of the Church. We all are members of the Church. Gods speaks to all of us. And we all have the right and the responsibility to address these issues of injustice like women’s ordination. To be told that if you support women’s ordination you will be excommunicated is so wrong